MangaHelpers to Viz: are they selling scangroups?

MangaHelpers to Viz: are they selling scangroups?

Here’s a good OP to listen to while reading this stuff.

Guorbatschow came through an interesting text (thanks to Necrophagia that often talks with us in the IRC) in anonymous form, most likely reliable, about MangaHelpers wanting to propose something to Viz Media.

You can keep yourself updated by following my tweets.

Viz Media is, for who doesn’t know, the official releaser of Hayate no Gotoku, and most likely future releaser of some of our other mangas. I am safe to say that, if it wasn’t for FoOlRulez, they’d get near to no selling for this manga, because Hayate was falling in unpopularity ever since one year ago, and the anime as well, catch up with their official scanlations. We’re like aperitifs for their buyers.

What’s MangaHelpers doing? Here’s the letter:

Nobody wants to read? I’ll explain. MangaHelpers wants to ask Viz to collaborate, because they both “work for the love of manga”. Note that both groups make money, lots of money. I perfectly know what’s the ad revenue for big websites like MangaHelpers. Now, it’s not exactly clear whan MH wants to do, but they’re kinda hinting it one of the last paragraphs.

For what I understood, they want to monetize our work.

Viz gets direct influence and control over the 3rd party market by teaming up with a reputable, stable and well liked online resource such as us, and we get to work with, develop and help promote something every one of us has a genuine passion and appreciation for. We have many valuable resources to offer; from global exposure and marketing possibilities to business models (advertisement sponsored, subscription, and microtransaction based digital distribution of online manga) that could potentially give Viz a very large newfound revenue source, to the hundreds of (professional) translators and image cleaners/typesetters who already publish their work at MangaHelpers for free; there are lots of possibilities and potential business ventures to be found. We even have the web framework for distribution and publishing of fanlations in place!

It just sounds like they want to use our scanlations to gain money for themselves. Not like they didn’t before with ads, but this could be somewhat different. What about adding advertising to our credits (“advertisement sponsored”),  pay per view (“subscription”) or pay per chapter (“microtransaction based digital distribution of online manga”). And which are the means used? “[...]give Viz a very large newfound revenue source, to the hundreds of (professional) translators and image cleaners/typesetters who already publish their work at MangaHelpers for free”.

What are they doing is, selling us?

The only ones I’d sell our work to is the official publisher itself, and that’s through a freelance  job paying everyone working a fair amount. We are after all, “(professional) translators and image cleaners/typesetters”, all of us in FoOls crew have inhuman skills, and, for our own pride, we wouldn’t like to work but for publishing for free or working through official systems.

There shouldn’t be money directly involved in our “gray area”. We, scanlators, are the only who really work for the pure love of manga, by losing 18-24 hours of work on every chapter per team and asking for nothing beside a “thanks”, that often doesn’t show up. We also pay our expensive servers, a damn lot, and we hardly get enough from ads to pay that off, to satisfy our need to host our own product, as well as a wiki, a proofing reader, a subforum, and, eventually, Google Wave… and much more.

I feel bitter about all of this.


El provided us with the documents that MangaHelpers shared with Viz media, the “Business plan”. You can download it from this link El provided us [] or you can read it in our manga reader since it’s made of images.

If you like looking behind the scenes:

You should refer to what guorbatschow said in this comment in order to get the gist of what’s actually happening. What did I see… well, see it yourself:


[Update 2]

MangaHelpers’ response. I must say I feel offended, because a group doing nothing but publishing (sorry to say, in front of the job of a single group even, it is little, and in front of all the scanlation panorama, it’s meaningless) is talking like they had power upon scanlators, when, in truth, their power in the place is very low. Instead of feeling blessed of having a popular website in which people cares to put their production, they behave like they had grip on our material.

This is also why, I think, they should clean their database of mangas before changing their policy: I never agreed with them selling my stuff.

Even more, they talk about a Crunchyroll system, when they probably don’t know that Crunchyroll is fairly different than what they probably imagine: it’s a group working still in the gray area, they’re not legal. They’re popular since a big group not related with licensing of anime decided to buy the website and sell amatorial production that people can anyway get through secondary means. (I am not so sure about this either now) Also, calling Crunchyroll material of a higher quality is another offense, this time to incredible fansubbers like Eclipse speedsubs.

I feel like this is going obviously against the ideals that scangroups have: collaboration, being in a cozy group sometimes, enjoying the thanks of the people… and adds money and another step between the manga and the reader.

[Update 3]

As stated by the MangaHelpers admins, they wouldn’t use the database of manga they have now, as they would first ask for permissions and all that comes with it.

64 Responses to “MangaHelpers to Viz: are they selling scangroups?”

  1. guorbatschow says:

    My view on this is, organized scanlation groups don’t even use MangaHelpers. Those who use MangaHelpers are people who don’t want to dedicate themselves to a group nor series and just submit their work once in a while. The price for the freedom from pressure is lack of control for quality. Look, if I care about the quality my translations are typeset, I’ll contact people I know that are good, or just do it myself. Translations that I’ve done, but dropped and I don’t care about anymore, get to be posted on MangaHelpers. Claiming to be a community of quality scanlators is nothing but attempt to sell themselves as expensive as possible to Viz.

    It’s bad enough what sites like onemanga and mangafox is pulling, getting revenue by hosting essentially free manga contributed by the community, but this attempt to sell themselves out to Viz is disgusting.

    Viz might even buy the information and try to sue the scanlators working there.

    Stay away from MangaHelpers. Now.

    • -X- says:

      After reading the plan,I discovered a few things aside from the fact it is poorly written. The First being,the plan is to riddled with legal issues to pass(Im a Corporate Lawyer by the I am old and I read manga,laugh now)such as the fact,they would sell themselves to Viz and such they would be controlled by Viz,thus meaning they lose their control and priceing regulation.They could also only produce Viz material.They can not get material copyright by other companies.The second would be yes,They essentially steal material to publish it.They may say otherwise but they will be getting money and the people who do the actual work would not see any profit,just a lose of time and Effort.Furthermore,as the scannalators finally relize this and start leaving the site.The plan would completly fail from losing its product.After Viz relizes they lost a profit from this flawed plan,that they will never accept. The next action would be to go after the Four consipiritors in this venture for the return of the capital or even legal actions against the Scanalators.This wont just affect Mangahelpers but the entire Manga Scanalation Community. In short,Boycott Mangahelpers,tear them from the internet before they start this venture or manga scanalator will have to go extremly underground or die complety out. Yes,This was poorly written as well but I am not actually caring about that at the present.

      -Post Script-
      If anyone would be willing to post this on MangaHelpers,I would greatly appreciate it and also pass a msg to the Head Admin there,You will fail and you will Become a Target of the Corporation

    • guorbatschow says:

      Let me quote that business plan:

      MangaHelpers is an Internet-based company venturing into the business of aggregating digital content of manga and distributing the contents online. This is achieved by working closely with legal license holders and acquiring the rights to distribute the contents throughout custom-made system.


      MangaHelpers targets the previously untapped target market of Internet Manga downloaders in general in which the market is currently dominated by illegal distribution of manga (scanlations) [...]

      They are purposely distancing themselves from the community that feeds them…

      The goal seems to be a monthly subscription plan similar to CrunchyRoll… not sure if selling scanlations is included. Reminds me of Tazmo…

      Oh, and they seem to be asking for 15k euro start-up funding. Anyone want to invest?

      • Johnny Doeizzle says:

        Well, njt and Tazmo are buddy-buddies.

        I do remember an incident in the past where Mangashare (prior to the merge with Binktopia, or so I think it was [it was a long time ago]) put a page in their release ( ), and njt told them to take it off or they won’t be able to release on MH any longer. That was the story that went around at the time.

        Buddies looking out for each other. So I’m not surprised that njt is doing the same as his buddy Tazmo is doing, trying to make profit from other people’s work.

      • polyonomous says:

        Seems MangaHelpers(MH) covered the 15k euro start-up cost. The business plan discusses that start-up cost in past tense: “it [was] paid by MH’s staff… [by] March 2009″ (Business plan, p. 30, para. 2-3). But ManagHelper’s response to the business plan leak says the document is rough, needs review. Maybe their 15k euro start-up is past tense for now… atop that, more uncertain fund “injections” are tentative if their business grows.

  2. Average Joe says:

    I am a scanlator who has released on MH quite a few times. I find this whole “business venture” (as they express over and over again on their nicely-put business plan) irritating.

    I started scanlating to see that a specific manga get scanlated, I eventually got around and we started to release more and more, I always loathed sites that profited from somebody else’s work. I don’t have a site, I release wherever I find a place, I get zero, zilch, nada profit. I do this for the joy of ME reading the manga. I don’t even do it for the community. And now some site wants to make profit out of the hours I put weekly into scanlating? I don’t mind the ads to get some money, after all, they do provide DDL and online read and those servers cost money.

    I think it’s a lose for MH in the end. They’re going to lose a lot of people if this deal goes through, and the fact that they’re losing people simply for just TRYING to make a profit, and a rumor that a couple of admins already left because of this. It seems not everyone within the staff is on the same page.

    I guess all we can do is sit on the sidelines and hope this goes the way of the dodo. I’d hate to see such a great community being split apart.

  3. Bandages says:

    Wow. And I was starting to like them, since I was able to read the latest translations of HnG before it was released in scanlated form. Is the guy who wrote that letter njt?

  4. 473 says:

    I don’t like this. Does this mean they are going to be royalties payed to the mangakas, what about remuneration for the scanlators. Besides all that, it undermines the very basis of the principles of scanlation: free fan translation. The second it’s not free it gets onto shakey legal ground, and possibly puts honest scanlators in an uncertain position. This must be monitored – I think alot of scanlators work much to hard for this to be sold out to corporate suits or guys in for a quick buck.

  5. infamy says:

    The scanlators should choose a neutral turf and move away from MH
    nobody who has got their senses and brain would not sign it.

  6. Madness of Two says:

    Screw Mangahelpers. If they want to sell out, I say we leave them and go someplace else.

    @Johnny Doeizzle: Oh ya, I remember that.

    Maybe we all should just go to Mangashare.

  7. Kratos180 says:

    I can’t imagine anybody going along with this; it’s absurd. If all they do is host scanlations, there’s no reason that would keep scanlators posting their work if they don’t get a scrap of profit. Scanlations are done on the whims of those working on them – if they don’t have a contract of some sort, they could simply stop scanlating, and that won’t do MH any good. This is a really stupid move.

  8. Gabriel (from Argentina) says:

    Hey wast up guy??

    i came to see if there was a new hayate chapter, and i saw all this crap…

    damn you mangahelpers! but after being i this stuff for over 2 years and being a leecher for 8 years, there is ALL WAYS someone out there that eventualy will start a new FREE community for manga lovers such ourself, (i see born and die a lot of communities, fansubs, blah bla, both in english and in spanish) so FUCK YOU MANGAHELPERS! ANDATE A LA CONCHA DE TU HERMANA!!!!

    WHERE THE FUCK IS THE “CHE” GUEVARRA (read baki son of ogre and you may find him…LOL)??!!

    well after this moment of rage, i say SALUDOS!!!

  9. Bandages says:

    I just checked out the comments that MH members left in that post. A lot of them are pretty pissed about it as well, so I doubt they’ll have many members on their side, if any.

  10. Anom says:

    Crunchyroll …

    Crunchyroll dealt with the Japanese companies that supplied the subs and cleaned house, ALL fansubbed material was simply removed.

    And I stopped going there, like I would guess A LOT of people did.

    Viz simply cannot accept anything less that the Crunchyroll model since otherwise they would be in trouble, it means ALL non-Viz licensed series have to be deleted and ALL material available will have to be supplied by Viz so why on EARTH would they pay up for what amounts to a Viz manga online reader? they HAVE one already.

    MangaHelpers plan will not work, they CANNOT sell the translations to start with and the truth is ALL they have is nothing but material that is a infringement of copyright laws.

    Also what groups are going to stay there? most scan groups operate like Foolrulez as there are only some very few that do operate from MangaHelpers but they can easy set up a blog, open a IRC channel and/or use some file sharing host (like Mediafire) for their releases.

  11. delacroix01 says:

    I have never posted releases on MH, but there are a lot of groups that posted their releases there (Hyena, for example). Guess it’s probably better to withdraw from MH. *Sigh*

  12. johngray40 says:

    I just want to point out that I REALLY appreciate all the work you guys do and that I’m really pissed off that MH are trying to take advantage of all the scanlators out there for their own selfish desires. They better be careful or they’ll wake up one day and find a ghost town that used to be their website.

  13. woxxy says:

    I added this comment in the MH post:

    For how much credit you can give to this team, being myself owner of websites (some almost fully coded by myself) and of a popular scanlation team, I can say their job of moderators isn’t particularly notable, especially because advertising pays off, and we’re not just talking of few hundred dollars.
    Why would one credit a few individuals, when this very website is run by the community, and, more specifically, by the scanlation groups that for “years” dedicated themselves to sharing their work with MangaHelpers just for getting a little recognition. The very scanlation groups invite people to this website, making it a goldmine. A website becomes this big not because of particular merits, but because of stagnation of visitors (see: twitter case), that feed the website more and more, without the need of the administrators to actually intervene with their own production, but moderation and website improvement. Even more: moderators can be recruited for free.

    As a community administrator as well, I know I can’t change my websites’ ideals to something that is the exact contrary of what they were before, just because of the possibility that the community will keep sticking to us. I saw websites losing over half their visitors right after an uproar caused by a pricky decision.
    Even though this is not law, but just morals, a website is the user’s property, as it’s the user who will decide what to read. A website with a forum is mostly shaped by the community itself, and this way the community becomes proprietary of the content.

    The root of the business plan is using MangaHelpers popularity in any possible mean. I don’t see this threatening in any way for the manga community, because, knowing the flow that scanlation groups have, they would just start avoiding this website, leading to a drop of popularity of this website because of lack of updates, that administrators would never be able to bring.
    I see it like a bad behavior towards the people that relies on this community itself, by appropriation of the product (this is not scans, but popularity and credit of the website) created in years by someone who isn’t the administration group.

    In other words, you’re willing to steal all the fame scanlators brought to you, and turn it into a commercial proposal backed by illegal means (that is the scanlator’s effort in the past to get you there).

  14. Fred says:

    Seriously this plan would just ruin the “free” part of scanlations. As a leecher (shamelessly admitted), I appreciate the work that all the scanlators have done and personally feel that no business should be involved in the process. It’s just totally not worth the efforts that these guys put in to produce what we’ve enjoyed.

  15. Sanosuke420 says:

    I still can’t believe what MH is trying to do and after reading the links you posted with the whole “proposal” I feel disgusted since I am with quite a few groups who pride ourselves in scanlating because we enjoy manga/manhwa and as fans ourselves we are helping other fans read manga/manhwa that may never reach the US or other countries anytime soon or ever and the true fans out there will support the mangakas they like and buy their books and not pay to read on the internet. I personally own a large collection of manga/manhwa in Japanese/Korean respectively because I would rather have a physical copy. This is basically just like spitting in our faces for we who made MH who they are today, without us the Scanlators they would be nothing. We put in countless hours of work and I never expected any money out of this and I’ve been around the scene for well over 5 years. I say just don’t USE MH anymore because honestly it seems like they’ve been planning this for a long time, this isn’t something you just come up with in a few days and I believe that someone on the inside of MH saw what was happening(I won’t name anybody) and what was being planned and said, “This is completely wrong and F#%@ed up and completely goes against what MH stood for” and leaked the info so we would know what’s going on because one of the heads of MH didn’t have the balls to talk about it to anyone before going through with any of this. It’s like MH has been taking advantage of “our” kindness and then putting a gun to our heads and without saying a word shooting, metaphorically speaking. It’s great that FoOlRulez released this article to let everyone know its not just some BS because it seems pretty elaborate to me. As a staff member of SCX and many other groups I can say that I’m honestly pretty pissed off about this whole subject matter and I hope all the people who read this article will stop using MH if they do or have in the past just stop supporting them because you’ll just be very dissapointed with greedy people who are in it only for the money of the all the hard work that we as scanlators have put in over the years. I could go on, but I’m sure everyone has their own opinion and and knows all too well what’s up because we all got a glimpse or a real good look at the true face of MH and thank you to the person or people who released the info to open our eyes to this…

  16. LonerGoth says:

    Oh my… so, you guys, I think I should thank you for Hayate and Kanokan, all the recent releases you’ve made, etc…

    I used ad block plus on mangafox, so I never saw one of those revenue generating ads, if that makes you feel better lol.

    I would imagine, scanlators can retract submissions to mangahelpers… and will do so after this news, if they are anything like the foolz crew…

    odd squad scans doesn’t have its own servers to pay for, its incredibly lacking in features compared to, but if you should ever say, “enough is enough” with regard to paying for a site, I would like to point out, google blogs, is there for you, and OSS works well with just it, irc and google docs. (and a really really cool leader, noobzilla).

    • woxxy says:

      You see though, some of us have fun with running websites. We know the alternatives, but, while there’s the cheap way to do things, we’re even going to pay for a second server if Google Wave will need one (a resource eater, as beta tester said). We’re quite spoiled.

      We don’t expect the public to pay for this though: ads do their job, and we host a lot of unnecessary material on the servers, like our personal blogs, that aren’t the interest of the public. We occasionally get donations as well. Most often from the same guy I should really thank, as his funds paid for the whole server for like 3 months.

      If we wanted to be a simple scanlation group, we wouldn’t make posts not regarding our own releases, yet, there’s posts of every flavor, as this one too. It’s part of this “scans community” for the scanlators to have some voice through their website.

      • LonerGoth says:

        noobzilla, would say something like, minions don’t have a voice, but not really mean it… and would somehow give them a voice if they should need anything like a blog…

  17. Charls says:

    This sucks… mangahelpers is selling all of us, readers and scanlators, I’m a Financial Analyst, Actuary in fact, this BP is really a good job if I were part of Viz I’d certainly consider the offer, thay will provide all of the hard work everybody in the world is doing. They have the name of the scanlators groups and maybe the name of the staff so if someone disagree they can sue them. This is really a terrible situation for all us. I hope MH reconsiders all of our comments and stay just like they were.

    • woxxy says:

      Did you consider that MH just lost its trustability by leaking important data? For how financially interesting, there’s no consideration of the reaction of the public (that, by going on mangahelpers, definitely knows where else to get mangas) that wouldn’t stay on their website if such ruckus happened. As we see, in 24 hours this became huge, and things didn’t even happen.

      My consideration is that Viz could do what MH proposes earlier and with better chances by doing it alone, rather than with unreliable third means (MH itself). They could contact scanlators, the good ones, themselves, and make contracts. Besides that this would be difficult: we’re not official corporations, rather, we’re something like underground charity.

      • Charls says:

        That’s right Viz doesn’t need MH (that’s what they can say in the negotiation to get MH very cheap)…but just take a look at the appendices there you will see the projections they are just estimating less than 2% of the monthly readers to pay (if the graphics and statistics they show are correct of course, I’m comparing this with the monthly readers of naruto, bleach and onepiece, actually there must be a lot more) and then they use a 10% monthly growth rate for the clients; well, just with those clients (let see if the reaction of this is so bad that nobody likes hm anymore)they are making at least .5 million dollars.

        You have another good point, everybody will continue making scanlations everywhere, so why would you pay for this…mmmm… what do you think about MH has the data base of most of the scanlators team with their staff and they sue you if you make an underground scanlation? or take some legal actions? What do you a Naruto fan will be able to pay if he doesn’t get the weekly edition in 1 month? They just have to convince 2 of 100 for this to work? and remember that they only took into consideration bleach, naruto and OP fans… how many fans are really there??

        Viz could do this with or without HM…they haven’t done it yet and I hope they never think about it.

        I get your point but they could make a lot of money here… I don’t like the idea either.

        • woxxy says:

          Rather than sue, they could send C&D left and right to groups who work on mangas licensed by Viz only. And these groups would have to cease releasing only the Viz mangas.

          Viz could have done it earlier, though. There’s a database of scanlators also at , and it’s much more filled. Viz knows perfectly about scanlators. They are just ignoring us.

          Truth is also, not even 0.5% of readers will read anything from MH if it goes to be pay per read. The MH community is not your normal half-brained group of readers, but scanlators and people who seek for the releases in more than one website. It’s a pretty complex website, and finding what you look for needs skills that aren’t needed anywhere else. Nobody knowing that they can find mangas elsewhere will go for MH.

          I have my doubts on mangas like Naruto disappearing for example: there are so many groups translating it I doubt they would be able to stop them all.

          Don’t forget that they would also have to pay the scanlators (thousands of people) and that they would have a great drop in sellings of the volumes (paperback) if buying on the internet is cheaper. I have the feeling that, while this market can seem profitable, it would hurt their own production: the very paper volumes they sell now, that surely profit more than millions.

  18. T1 says:

    I read here, then went there, laughed and wrote a lot, then went to mangaupdates and wrote a little there and then came back here and wrote a little……being a scanlator is hard…you waste too much time while surfing on the net XD

  19. Charls says:

    I just read MH answer for all of this and is like they were doing this for the readers… I won’t only say that is stupidity but I have some questions If that if this is for the reader’s sake why there is no forum discussing it before all of this? Why they didn’t even ask to the community that made them what they are today? I really don’t believe it,

    • T1 says:

      Heh, you know where I come from it’s called “backstabbing”.

      Yes, yes, I know they are allowed to do what they want with their site but wouldn’t it be better to tell the ones you are affecting what you are going to do so they won’t feel betrayed?

      That’s atleast how 98% of them are feeling atm.
      Yes, leechers and scanlators alike, which actually makes up the main supporters..even with the few people who are going “no it’s not like that” “stop being a leecher” “he’s not doing anything wrong”…it won’t affect how the main supporters (the leechers) will react to this. My proof is how people vote in our countries. The one who can shout aloud and get control of the flow wins, and atm it’s the “MH betrayed us”-people who’s winning :3

      I haven’t talked to njt about it and I probably never will. This is a mess he needs to fix himself and if he doesn’t then it’s best that I move our stuff away from MH. From what I can read from the mail to Viz and the Business Plan (lets not look at the pics of mails, lol) I can see that the majority isn’t wrong in what they are saying.

      According to the business plan: MH will in the future control the raw flow thus the scanlation flow and help the licensed firms to hit hard on scanlation groups who doesn’t stop scanlating when asked to. Distribution still means that you are selling something rather than sharing it for free…yes I looked it up today too, lol. MH forgets one thing, in scanlations people can do it as they want to while when working for a firm you have to do it as they tell you to, thats how it is and thats how it will always be.

      About questions asked: I got lots that I wrote on comments for the post in MH that I want answered too. They probably never will :P

  20. Jang says:

    damn MH should go down just for proposing this, even if they dont follow through with it.

    isnt the bottom line of scanlations: made by fans for free, and distributed to the fans for free? and when some bastards try to profit from the community like this, it’ll just piss off a lotta people.

    scanlations are fine the way it is, it’s been fine since years before MH came to the scene and it’ll be fine after MH is gone. There’s just no reason to try to change the way the people are doing things now except if they really are just after the money.

  21. Ronald says:

    This is sick. They are trying to sell us out!!!
    We are dedicated to scan the mangas we LOVE. It is our way that we LOVE that manga. We don’t need money or opportunities, we just want to hear those people who say “Thanks” in our WORK. :(

  22. c says:

    Thank you for exposing their bullshit, foolrulez.

    They are scum for trying to do this to everyone.

    They’re trying to control the whole scanlating scene. Read it in their proposal if anyone hasn’t (check page 19).
    They’re trying to act like they own and control everything to the publishers and are saying that they can go after anyone else who is releasing things without MangaHelpers permission for free.

    They’re acting like they control the people who do the hard work, so they can make lots of money.

    These people are scum.

  23. Mei Chan says:

    It’s bad enough what sites like onemanga and mangafox is pulling, getting revenue by hosting essentially free manga contributed by the community, but this attempt to sell themselves out to Viz is disgusting.

    can anyone explain whats this mean?

    ja, MH sucks!

    • Neh says:

      Well as said, if the deal does actually happen MH would not be using its current database of manga, but an entirely new one if it’s planning to actually sell manga. Also, I’d be a hypocrite if I said MH sucked, because, well, most major raw providers come from MH.

      • woxxy says:

        The thing is that it’s not the raw providers who decide upon such a “change”, and that it’s not the people who are deciding upon the “change” who contributed so much to the community.

        So, MH is bad, MH community is good.

  24. Mei Chan says:

    gomen,i’m talking about the staff *cough*njt*cough*
    scanslators are awesome
    and raw providers are awesome too

  25. Rachid says:

    “…asking for nothing beside a “thanks”, that often doesn’t show up…”

    THANK YOU for all your hard work, I have a solid experience in photoshop and web dev as web dev and designer freelancer, and I know how boring a repetitive job can get (cleaning tens of pages), how awry servers can be when you most need them, and how harsh people’s tongues can tore through your work almost all the time. And if all you need guys is a thanks, then a big thank you for your HARD and valuable work, and keep it coming, you know we need you.